PlayStation 5 Pro (PS5 Pro)

[Nyt Ryda]

Yeah I think that’s going to be even more apparent next time around.

PS4 Pro to PS5 at least also saw the two biggest QoL items that gamers wanted outside of performance, those being the noise of the machines and loading times.

With those solved what’s the PS6 going to bring outside of yet more visuals?

The big leap that needs to be made, by everyone, is making games faster and cheaper.

120FPS Ultra Performance mode using PSSR 2.0 with hardware frame generation. 60FPS Performance mode indistinguishable from native 4K. And next gen 30FPS Fidelity mode with Pathtracing.

Achieved with an 8 core Zen 6 3nm with some 3D cache, RDNA 5 with atleast 36CU, 24Gb 32Gbps GDDR7 for 2x memory bandwidth over PS5, 1Tb PCIE 5.0 storage.

$599. Generation still won and Xbox hardware division folds by the end of it. Calling it now.

 

[AdrianH]

$599. Generation still won and Xbox hardware division folds by the end of it. Calling it now.

So to be clear, you are predicting XBX/S is the last MS console to be released, or that just the Xbox hardware decision will not exist?

 

[Nyt Ryda]

So to be clear, you are predicting XBX/S is the last MS console to be released, or that just the Xbox hardware decision will not exist?

They will still release some stuff.
2026-2028 will be the next Xbox console that was in the court documents, and the accompanying handheld that is also rumored.

The main console will sell worse than the Series S|X (as is the trend currently, with every Xbox selling worse than the last) and the handheld will not come close to Steam Deck/Switch numbers.

Assuming the PS6 arrives 2027 and the PS7 in 2034, by 2034 I predict the Xbox hardware division (responsible for designing Xbox consoles and accessories) will not be making anything new.
They will be assimilated into other roles/studios in the Microsoft Gaming division and possibly xCloud if that grows enough.

This could change if the MS handheld is a huge win, but I struggle to see them competing with the Switch 2 and Steam Deck 2. Especially since MS will want the handheld to be Windows based and the power usage and battery life on Windows based handhelds is just soo bad right now.

 

[AdrianH]

They will still release some stuff.
2026-2028 will be the next Xbox console that was in the court documents, and the accompanying handheld that is also rumored.

The main console will sell worse than the Series S|X (as is the trend currently, with every Xbox selling worse than the last) and the handheld will not come close to Steam Deck/Switch numbers.

Assuming the PS6 arrives 2027 and the PS7 in 2034, by 2034 I predict the Xbox hardware division (responsible for designing Xbox consoles and accessories) will not be making anything new.
They will be assimilated into other roles/studios in the Microsoft Gaming division and possibly xCloud if that grows enough.

This could change if the MS handheld is a huge win, but I struggle to see them competing with the Switch 2 and Steam Deck 2. Especially since MS will want the handheld to be Windows based and the power usage and battery life on Windows based handhelds is just soo bad right now.

Yeah, I agree with 2034 as I have previously said that the next generation of consoles most likely will be the last as we know it for MS.

I thought you meant like this decade still

 

[JoE]

I think the issue is that for better or worse, consoles have become PC boxes and as a result the comparisons mean that they're always chasing higher framerates and graphical fidelity with vast open worlds instead of making a more curated experience. Not every IP needs to be the same third person over the shoulder derivative buddy adventure. I can appreciate the worlds that they create but I've honestly had more fun with the linear easy to pick up and play titles over the AAA stuff we're getting these days.

@MarioAna put it nicely when he said they need to reduce development time and if they stopped making mid gen refreshes and focused on quicker releases they could sell less to get more value and profit greater over time whilst also reducing risk of an 8 year cycle going bust and closing a studio. Riskier projects might get a green light as a result and we will not get the 'safe' titles we're getting these days. My real wish is that they actually make a handheld PS4 as soon as the tech allows.

 

[MarioAna]

stopped making mid gen refreshes and focused on quicker releases

Mid gen refreshes are keeping funds flowing in. I think the dev process has become so bad that studios need to do this to survive now. Also these refreshes can now be ported to PC easily, more on that below.

What I’m thinking is there needs to be some technical advancement that makes development easier and faster; like AI that manages NPC interaction for RPGs etc or PSSR that allows for much smaller base assets.

My real wish is that they actually make a handheld PS4 as soon as the tech allows.

If they do a handheld, and I hope they do, it has to be able to play PC ports of PS5 games. No extra dev should be needed for a game to be on there. If it’s a separate platform like Vita or PSP it’s DOA.

 

[Mrbananaguy13]

Anyone perhaps selling a ps5 disc edition?

 

[KenMasters]

 

[JoE]

Mid gen refreshes are keeping funds flowing in. I think the dev process has become so bad that studios need to do this to survive now. Also these refreshes can now be ported to PC easily, more on that below.

What I’m thinking is there needs to be some technical advancement that makes development easier and faster; like AI that manages NPC interaction for RPGs etc or PSSR that allows for much smaller base assets.


If they do a handheld, and I hope they do, it has to be able to play PC ports of PS5 games. No extra dev should be needed for a game to be on there. If it’s a separate platform like Vita or PSP it’s DOA.

If the PS5 is barely profitable, the pro is surely a bigger loss maker because it simply doesn't have the same volumes. The only plausible excuse is the one they're giving which is R&D for PS6. I'm sure it's an ego thing because they're porting everything to PC which makes the best place to play their games be the PC. Devs don't need another piece of hardware to further complicate their dev cycles as that's worked out well for xbox with the series S this gen.

The handheld has to be based off existing architecture which is why I think the PS4 would be ideal. Game library is already there and that would sell ps plus subs on its own... Heck, I think if xbox can come up with their own device around the spec of the series S then that with gamepass will be a banger of a device and probably eat into the switch 2 market. I'm actually surprised they've left such a void for Nintendo to operate in by themselves.

 

[KenMasters]

If the PS5 is barely profitable, the pro is surely a bigger loss maker because it simply doesn't have the same volumes.

I doubt Sony makes much off PS5 hardware, maybe not even breaking even on the digital version - the general model has always been to sell the system as cheap as possible (historically at a loss) and make it up though software and licensing. By contrast, as a luxury product, they can afford a margin on the PS5 Pro.

The only plausible excuse is the one they're giving which is R&D for PS6.

They don't need an excuse, they are a hardware company, they can both make a small profit on the PS5 Pro and have it be valuable for R&D.

I'm sure it's an ego thing because they're porting everything to PC which makes the best place to play their games be the PC. Devs don't need another piece of hardware to further complicate their dev cycles as that's worked out well for xbox with the series S this gen.

The Series S has been a pain in the backside for developers, having to work backwards from the lead consoles, the X and PS5. By contrast enhancing titles for the Pro is a much simpler prospect - taking the base game and seeing where it makes sense to enhance it vs trying to whittle it down to run on inferior hardware without compromising the core experience.

 

[Evil_Villain]

Do we play games or run them and look at them? I'm really at the point where games look good enough I just want them to be fun and work properly.

 

[KenMasters]

Quality Mode  

The PS5 Pro Quality mode features ray tracing, which isn't available on the base PS5 version of the game.  

• 30fps with ray tracing 
• Ray traced reflections (opaque and transparent) 
• Output resolution 3840 x 2160 (4K) 
• Render resolution 2176 x 1224

Performance Mode 

The Performance Mode on the PS5 Pro features significantly higher output resolution and has more visual detail compared to the base PS5. The Pro Performance mode uses approximately the same image quality (render) settings as the base PS5’s Quality mode.

The overall image stability, fog, volumetric lighting, and shadow accuracy have been improved on the Pro.  

• 60fps 
• Using approximately the same render (image quality) settings as the base PS5 Quality mode.
• Base PS5 Performance mode version runs at lower render (image quality) settings 
• Render resolution 1536 x 864 
• Output resolution 3840 x 2160 (4K)
• Base PS5 version outputs 1440p.

Alan Wake 2 on PlayStation 5 Pro – Behind The Scenes

Take a deep dive into how Remedy’s Northlight engine team updated the technology behind Alan Wake 2 to support the new features of PlayStation 5 Pro.

www.remedygames.com

 

[Nyt Ryda]

That Northlight engine is so ass for image clarity, plus those Remedy devs have been in need of glasses for almost a decade. I'll always remember that blurry crap Quantum Break at 720p on Xbox One and it was not much better on PC. They're lucky that they're pretty good at making characters and unique sci fi stories.

Now we're just waiting to see how PS5 Pro does with some of that low res UE5 stuff.

 

[KenMasters]

 

[JoE]

I doubt Sony makes much off PS5 hardware, maybe not even breaking even on the digital version - the general model has always been to sell the system as cheap as possible (historically at a loss) and make it up though software and licensing. By contrast, as a luxury product, they can afford a margin on the PS5 Pro.



They don't need an excuse, they are a hardware company, they can both make a small profit on the PS5 Pro and have it be valuable for R&D.



The Series S has been a pain in the backside for developers, having to work backwards from the lead consoles, the X and PS5. By contrast enhancing titles for the Pro is a much simpler prospect - taking the base game and seeing where it makes sense to enhance it vs trying to whittle it down to run on inferior hardware without compromising the core experience.

Exactly why the pro doesn't make sense apart for the R&D. The only margin I see is the Concur tax

I feel the series S being bad to develop for is a lazy argument by devs considering that most titles are still cross gen and pro consoles atm seem more about unlocking framerate over anything else.

 

[KenMasters]

Exactly why the pro doesn't make sense apart for the R&D.

I don't think my meaning came across. I was saying that unlike the PS5, it makes sense to build a margin into the Pro i.e. sales of the Pro turn a profit.

I feel the series S being bad to develop for is a lazy argument by devs considering that most titles are still cross gen and pro consoles atm seem more about unlocking framerate over anything else.

Game development is a balance of performance vs fidelity, the problem is that current development (we are past the cross-gen period) is focused on optimising for PS5 and Series X level hardware. The S being less capable makes it a challenge to rebalance such titles in a manner consumers will find satisfactory - it is not laziness. It's the reason Balder's Gate was delayed and speculated reason Wukong has yet to make an appearance on the Xbox.

As for the Pro, the reason for its existence chiefly is to improve fidelity over the base model. If you want better graphics, get a Pro, better performance will be title dependent (Empire of the Ants, being a GPU limited title, goes from 30fps to 60fps on the Pro, but that should not be expected).

 

[JoE]

I don't think my meaning came across. I was saying that unlike the PS5, it makes sense to build a margin into the Pro i.e. sales of the Pro turn a profit.



Game development is a balance of performance vs fidelity, the problem is that current development (we are past the cross-gen period) is focused on optimising for PS5 and Series X level hardware. The S being less capable makes it a challenge to rebalance such titles in a manner consumers will find satisfactory - it is not laziness. It's the reason Balder's Gate was delayed and speculated reason Wukong has yet to make an appearance on the Xbox.

As for the Pro, the reason for its existence chiefly is to improve fidelity over the base model. If you want better graphics, get a Pro, better performance will be title dependent (Empire of the Ants, being a GPU limited title, goes from 30fps to 60fps on the Pro, but that should not be expected).

I got the margin reference. They upped the price of the PS5 globally including components knowing how price sensitive the audience is so the pro would not have made any profitable margin out the gate. But this is greedy Sony who understand their dominant position and are milking their user base for all they can while they can. I'm sure next gen we get a console shipped without a controller at this rate!

Wukong is a timed exclusive according to most reports and Baldur's Gate was a PC first title so porting to the series S became an issue because xbox promised parity on their consoles and forced Larian Studios to comply with it. The issue was specifically related to the couch co op and since they were allowed to scrap that feature for the series s, it's run on the console and just proves my laziness chirp to the devs. Effort wise, if they can scale up for the pro they can scale down for the series s.

Back to the pro, isn't the fidelity and performance modes on the current PS5 not achieving that decision? I still feel they're chasing PC comparison numbers and will always lose that fight as NVIDIA always has a better GPU around the corner so if you really want better fidelity, just get a PC imho as all the games are there anyway.

 

[MarioAna]

Effort wise, if they can scale up for the pro they can scale down for the series s.

You cannot believe that surely?

Will they release a Series S game at 420p so that it can run parity features? Not a chance. There’s a limit as to what any system can do and the Series S is the potato of the generation and causes the biggest headaches.

just get a PC imho as all the games are there anyway.

Unless you are budget sensitive or don’t like PC gaming. Which is a lot of people.

 

[KenMasters]

I got the margin reference. They upped the price of the PS5 globally including components knowing how price sensitive the audience is so the pro would not have made any profitable margin out the gate.

Sorry, what now?

The PS5 is sold for as low as Sony can justify to sell it in order to ensure market share. The Pro can afford to stand separate from this, so every unit sold turns a profit.

Don't look at it solely from a console perspective, look at it from the perspective of a hardware company. Sony still makes a wide range of Blu-ray players, how many of those do you think they set, yet they continue to manufacture them because the hardware itself is profitable.

But this is greedy Sony who understand their dominant position and are milking their user base for all they can while they can. I'm sure next gen we get a console shipped without a controller at this rate!

I don't follow you here at all.

is a timed exclusive according to most reports...

Any credible ones? Why would that not be transparent, as with every other timed exclusive? If it were a timed exclusive, Sony would have yelled it from the rooftops.

...and Baldur's Gate was a PC first title so porting to the series S became an issue because xbox promised parity on their consoles and forced Larian Studios to comply with it.

Yes, because the Series S was not able to maintain parity with the Series X or PS5.

The issue was specifically related to the couch co op and since they were allowed to scrap that feature for the series s, it's run on the console and just proves my laziness chirp to the devs.

No it doesn't, it proves that the S poses challenges to devs. There is no challenge in scaling up once you have your foundation, it's only a question of wear to allocate the additional capacity.

Effort wise, if they can scale up for the pro they can scale down for the series s.

No, if the PS5 and Series X are the target platform and you're pushing those platforms (just look at the resolutions some games are running at already), scaling down to the S can easily fall into the category of a bridge too far.

Back to the pro, isn't the fidelity and performance modes on the current PS5 not achieving that decision?

The cuts to image quality in order to achieve 60fps can be pretty severe for some, for those people a PS5 that promises a performance mode with image quality roughly equivalent to the fidelity mode would be ideal. And in my case, for some games a 30fps mode that is above the standard fidelity mode would go down a treat with the right titles.

I still feel they're chasing PC comparison numbers and will always lose that fight as NVIDIA always has a better GPU around the corner so if you really want better fidelity, just get a PC imho as all the games are there anyway.

Not all the games, and I personally do not care to own a gaming PC (my reasoning for which I provided earlier in the thread).

 

[JoE]

You cannot believe that surely?

Will they release a Series S game at 420p so that it can run parity features? Not a chance. There’s a limit as to what any system can do and the Series S is the potato of the generation and causes the biggest headaches.


Unless you are budget sensitive or don’t like PC gaming. Which is a lot of people.

Yes I do believe it but that's also where exceptions are made as I indicated. There is a line like there is with the pro because everything has a limit which is the point of a console. For example, the pro can run at 60fps at close to the same fidelity as the base does at 30fps but the base at 30fps still has marginally better graphics based on digital foundry tests to date. Baldur's Gate was the first (and only) game that has had this issue this gen and we're already past the mid gen so I think it's working in terms of delivering on their promise.

The budget sensitive bit reinforces my point. Selling volume which from a cost of production works out better because you can procure components cheaper and make more PS5 consoles. The pro comes at a cost and that market that wants the extra are not as price sensitive and would be better off on a PC. MS tried to cater to the budget sensitive market with the series S and with better leadership they could've made it work as it is the better selling console of the two for them.